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Author Topic: Why is the government blocking the sale of fuel-effic?ient cars in the USA? Back to Topics
goldseeker

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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2012 11:32:58 PM

U.S. Government blocks sales of fuel-efficient cars

The development of affordable "green" cars and trucks - electric vehicles or hybrids designed to dramatically curb the nation's reliance on fossil fuels - is supposed to be a primary goal for the Obama administration and a number of government and industry leaders. But what about diesel-burning vehicles that already get more than 70 miles a gallon?I have pretty much suspected that the combination of government and big business was behind this for some time. I also have had friend who traveled to Europe and they too noted that there were extreme high mileage rental cars over there.

Here in America we have the Smart Car. I have seen a few of them around here. But they only get 42 mpg. Not that great for a two seater car. My 2010 Focus will seat 5 and I get about 39 mpg on the highway. But wait a minute, the diesel version of the Smart Car is available in Canada and it gets around 65 mpg. I hear that it is not allowed in the US due to emission standards. Wait minute, you get phenominal mileage, yet it does not meet emmision standards??? Something doesn't wash.

I have a friend that lives just a few miles from here that has a Ford Escort Wagon that was made in the 80s with a small Mitsubuti diesel motor. It gets 65 mpg on the highway and mpg around town. I believe GM had a diesel Chevette from the same time frame that got the similar mileage.

Here is a link to Volkswagon UK that proves indeed they do have high mileage cars abroad. I am even hearing that those cars are assembled here.

Fuel consumption for UK Volkswagons

If the government is concerned about emissions, then lets fuel them with biodiesel.

Of course the oil companies could not handle a high mileage car like that in America, especially if it was fueled with biodiesel.

It is no wonder that the SUV that Virginia Tech Won the EcoCAR Competition With An Extended-Range Electric Vehicle will never become available to Americans.

You know I can remember nearly 40 years ago in the Mother Earth News a guy made a Opel Cadet hybrid with a small diesel that got around 80 mpg.

Move over Prius, it is time for a real high mileage car.


[Edited by: goldseeker at 6/16/2012 12:35:33 AM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 16, 2012 12:50:10 PM

Houckster, I am glad you're taking the time to read it; it does take a while. According to the EPA, diesel particulates are made up of "elemental carbon with adsorbed compounds such as organic compounds, sulfate, nitrate, metals and other trace elements." The major component is carbon, sometimes referred to as "soot". Particulates from gas engines appear to be of similar composition, but are typically 4 to 5 times smaller.
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Houckster
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Message Posted: Aug 15, 2012 7:34:36 AM

HOTROD10: I am reading the report you referenced. The particle emissions are discussed as if I really know what they are. I don't know for sure. Are these particles simply unburned fuel?
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 14, 2012 8:03:17 PM


HotRod10, More Diesels are coming in the next couple of years...

But in the meantime, the Chevy volt is outselling all but two diesel models being sold in the usa... I think this will change when Chevy Cruze comes to states..
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 14, 2012 9:54:47 AM

Yes reb, despite the extra expense required for diesels to pass the emissions standards made for gas engines, they continue to become more popular, and more models are being offered now that the technology has caught up with the regulations. However, many models are still unavailable because the modifications are too expensive.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 13, 2012 6:18:53 PM

Hotrod10, california has been known as "lala land" for many years and for good reason... And California has other stricter standards, not just for diesels...

More companies are offering the vehicles in the future. You should petition the company you want to bring the car you want to the states.

Diesels are on the rise...

July Diesels sales are pretty strong as well...

9,500 last month (total) and over 70K ytd...

I think sales will increase when other manufacturers offer diesel options.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Aug 13, 2012 1:02:17 PM

"Do a simple search of Availability of new car Diesels and you can find Diesels for sale...
Here is a dealer that has 20 Vehicles for sale in Los Angeles *** "

22 for sale when I looked - all of them VWs. Yes VW and a few other manufacturers have make diesels that will meet California's absurd emissions standards, but many more do not, and are still blocked (prohibited, if you will) from selling their diesels in CA.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 13, 2012 10:22:27 AM

"The bottom line is that the EPA is doing nothing to block diesels and if a manufacturer wants to offer one, all they have to do is make the car to meet the standards in place."

If you read the paper I linked to (it's worth the read, even though it's long, with lots of references and citations) you would see that the EPA "standards in place" favor gas engines by regulating only certain emissions (only 4 types) to levels that, by accident or design, gas engines meet without modification or added expense. However, the dangerous emissions that are not regulated and the way that the particulate matter (PM) is limited (by mass rather than number of particles) makes gas engine emissions more dangerous to the environment and to people than those from the diesel engines that do not pass. Just a few of the highlights:

1) Gas engine expel approximately the same number of particulates per mile as a diesel engine. However, from gas engines the particles are smaller and therefore are more hazardous to the lungs when inhaled. Because EPA measures particulates by mass, gas engines are allowed a far higher number of particles to be spewed into the air and inhaled.

2) The EPA regulates tailpipe emissions of Nitrous oxide (Nox), CO and hydrocarbons (HC), all of which are a precursor compounds to ozone, but sets the levels for all 3 high enough for gas engines' tailpipe emissions. If total HC emissions (including evaporation, etc.) were considered, gassers would not pass as easily. Total HC emissions from diesels are an order of magnitude (10 times) less than even the tailpipe emissions from gassers. CO emissions from diesels are near zero. Bottom line, taken together, diesels produce far less ozone-forming emissions than gassers.

3) Gas engines produce VOCs and much higher levels of benzene, ethene, propene, and 1-3 butadiene than diesels, but these toxic chemicals are not tested for, nor regulated, in vehicle exhaust.
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Houckster
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2012 1:34:19 PM

HOTROD10 writes: Houckster, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the diesel emissions vs. gas. If a diesel only has to get 14.5% better mileage to have lower emissions than a gasser, then virtually all of them would meet the standards. Diesels get between 30% and 50% better mpg than their gas counterparts. Please clarify.
____
What I'm pointing out is that if the diesel gets much better mileage as many claim, it will actually pollute less over a given distance. Therefore, if a gasser with the same size engine, approximately, can pass the emissions test then the diesel car should be able to pass if it's emissions are as good or better.

Since EPA testing procedures are based on an urban and a highway driving schedule and all vehicles go through the same test procedure and the emissions levels requirements are the same for all engines, then there seems to be no evidence that the EPA is blocking diesels. The additional complexity of a clean diesel, the additional cost, and the doubts among some OEMs that there's a market for diesel cars seem to account for the lack of choices. There may also be some concerns about the availability of diesel fuel as well. I've heard from a couple of sources that the diesel yield from some of our sources of crude is lower than in the past but I've not seen any substantial discussion about this yet.

Finally I spent a few minutes finding cars models that offer comparably sized diesels and gas engines. Obviously this isn't a comprehensive overview but what I found is that the diesel VW Jetta does appear to have a substantially higher fuel efficiency than the gas version, it is, in fact an 8 MPG advantage and actual user are reporting much higher mileage than the EPA estimates. OTOH, the Mercedes ML350 has only slightly better mileage than it's gasoline counterpart and the diesel engine is a half liter smaller.

The bottom line is that the EPA is doing nothing to block diesels and if a manufacturer wants to offer one, all they have to do is make the car to meet the standards in place.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 6:43:17 PM

HotRod10...

Dealers In California
As for relying on Ms. Job... Read this comment from Jun 20, 2011 10:11AM

"This article is way out of date and wrong now. The VW and Audi TDI Diesel engines have been 50 state legal since at least 2008...same with Mercedes too."

Do a simple search of Availability of new car Diesels and you can find Diesels for sale...
Here is a dealer that has 20 Vehicles for sale in Los Angeles ***

V.W. has indicated why the 1.6 engine was not available. It was due to the u.s. market not wanting the vehicle... under powered.

Diesels are available in the states you indicated. THey are available and seem to be in pretty good supply according to the V.W. Dealer site I listed (by random)... Ann Job does not appear to be a reliable source...
Check some other sources for your facts...
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 6:43:17 PM

HotRod10...

Dealers In California
As for relying on Ms. Job... Read this comment from Jun 20, 2011 10:11AM

"This article is way out of date and wrong now. The VW and Audi TDI Diesel engines have been 50 state legal since at least 2008...same with Mercedes too."

Do a simple search of Availability of new car Diesels and you can find Diesels for sale...
Here is a dealer that has 20 Vehicles for sale in Los Angeles ***

V.W. has indicated why the 1.6 engine was not available. It was due to the u.s. market not wanting the vehicle... under powered.

Diesels are available in the states you indicated. THey are available and seem to be in pretty good supply according to the V.W. Dealer site I listed (by random)... Ann Job does not appear to be a reliable source...
Check some other sources for your facts...
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 3:33:35 PM

"So what exactly did you mean then HOTROD10??? What was your meaning of Prohibit?"

Just what I and Ms. Job said; "five states...prohibit their sale due to emission restrictions...effectively closes more than 20% of the US market to diesels."

Prohibit means the same to me as it does to you. If a vehicle cannot pass the EPA emissions standards, IT CANNOT BE SOLD OR LICENSED IN THE US. Likwise with the higher standards in the 5 states that have them. That sounds like prohibiting sales of the vehicles that don't meet the standards to me. I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about that.

"a reasonable person would think you meant that people in the five states were not able to purchase diesel vehicles."

No, a reasonable person reads what's actually written instead of jumping to erroneous conclusions. I qualified my statements at every step, and so did the writer I quoted.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 3:10:41 PM

Houckster, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the diesel emissions vs. gas. If a diesel only has to get 14.5% better mileage to have lower emissions than a gasser, then virtually all of them would meet the standards. Diesels get between 30% and 50% better mpg than their gas counterparts. Please clarify.

"The job of the EPA is to insure that our environment is a clean one."

Well, that's the job they're supposed to be doing. In the case of auto emissions, they seem to be fairly selective about what types of pollution they want to reduce.

From: GAS VS. DIESEL IN LIGHT-DUTY APPLICATIONS FYI: CO = Carbon Monoxide, HC = hydrocarbons, and PM = particulate matter

"In summary, diesel engines typically have lower emissions of NMHCs (including insignificant levels of evaporative emissions), CO, and unregulated air toxics like benzene, than equivalent gasoline engines. Diesel engines typically do have higher emissions of NOx (although engine-out NOx levels are actually higer in gasoline engines) and PM. However, in urban locations studied thus far, lowering ambient NOx levels without a greater reduction in ambient NMHC and CO levels will likely not lower ambient ozone levels and may actually make them worse in some locations. Although gasoline engine PM emissions are typically lower on a mass basis than diesel engines, gas engine PM tends to be smaller, more toxic and have higher levels of PAHs, some of which are considered carcinogens. On a particle number basis, gas engine PM is similar to uncontrolled diesel engine PM."





[Edited by: HotRod10 at 8/10/2012 4:15:49 PM EST]
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Houckster
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 1:18:51 PM

My bad, I stated: A diesel car will have to go about 25% more on a gallon of diesel to match the emissions from a gasser.

It's not 25%. My calculation was wrong, it's about 14.5%.
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Houckster
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 1:09:36 PM

DENNIS783 writes: Not unusual for this president's actions not matching his talk.
_____
More silliness and no substance from the Right. When will they grow up?
___
HOTROD10 writes in relation to the EPA making it hard to introduce diesel cars to the US: . . . my only speculation was whether it's a conscious effort by the EPA. Yes, despite the red tape and extra thousands of dollars, several manufacturers have said they will introduce diesels in the US market. We'll have to wait and see if they actually get it done by next year, or whether they end up a few years late like the Volt. And yes, VW is doing well with their diesels, despite the nearly $5000 premium for the TDI over the gas versions.
_____
The job of the EPA is to insure that our environment is a clean one. If there people (not necessarily HOTROD10) claiming that the EPA is discouraging the introduction of diesel cars by making it difficult for them to meet emissions standards, then the inescapable conclusion is that they have made the decision that diesel cars are more important than clean air. I would disagree with that entirely. Clean air is more important than better mileage from an engine that's dirty.

Let's get real. Most of the time the price of diesel is higher than gasoline. Many times it is so much so that the CPM of diesel is more than that of gas, especially if the driving is done in a congested urban environment. It is hard to escape the conclusion that diesel advocates are not focused on the broader picture. It is not the engine, nor the cost of diesel nor the purchase price of a diesel car that we have to look at, it's the impact of a diesel car on the community. If it can meet emissions standards then I think they should be made available and it will be up to the the buyer to conclude if the price premium for a diesel is worthwhile but it is a severe mistake to lower emissions standards so diesel cars can be offered.

A diesel car will have to go about 25% more on a gallon of diesel to match the emissions from a gasser.

Frankly, I'm tempted to conclude that we should leave diesel to the trucking industry. Lower prices for diesel would benefit us all. We should concentrate on bringing true flex-fuel cars to the market that can burn natural gas and regular gas. I would be willing to pay the price premium that type of car would demand.



[Edited by: Houckster at 8/10/2012 2:16:05 PM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 12:39:24 PM

Hotrod10, despite the price difference of the diesel vehicles, there is also the fuel difference which is much higher than the delta we experience in the U.S. (not familiar with Canada). According to the Author of the article "our tests reveal it could take up to 14 years to recoup the up-front costs in fuel savings". as for ban, I guess prohibit means different things to different people. A reasonable person with reasonable comprehension would believe that you were saying that the diesels were banned... after all HotRod10, Here is what you stated: "Popular in Europe, diesel models are limited in their availability in the U.S. because five states—California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine and Vermont—prohibit their sale due to emission restrictions."

Then you made the following statement... "That effectively closes more than 20% of the US market to diesels."

So what exactly did you mean then HOTROD10??? What was your meaning of Prohibit? And what was your meaning of "effectively closes more than 20% of the US Market"? again, a reasonable person would think you meant that people in the five states were not able to purchase diesel vehicles. Which is obviously not true.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 10, 2012 11:31:32 AM

"So here is someone indicating that price 'premium' of vehicles in europe is significant. Imagine that..."

Significant, yes, but not as significant as here.

From your linked article: "With drivers having to pay a premium for a diesel car – typically £1,000 to £2,000 more on a new car..."

That's around $1,600 to $3,200, not quite the $4000 to $5000 I typically see for ones around here. I suspect the CA is worse with the additional emissions equipment required.

"HotRod10, you certainly backpeddle quite well."

Where exactly did I "backpeddle"? I never claimed that the vehicles were straight up banned from the US markets, or those in CA or the other states. I agreed with the OP - until very recently, the regulations made it impossible for most diesel vehicles to be sold. That's blocking the sale of those vehicles. What part of that do you not get, reb?

The stricter emissions standards in CA went into effect in 2007, and it's taken until this year (actually next year in the case of several US makes) for the technology necessary to meet the standards to become economical enough to be feasible.

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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 9:18:14 PM

HotRod10, you certainly backpeddle quite well. "Oh, and it's not just the EPA - "Popular in Europe, diesel models are limited in their availability in the U.S. because five states—California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine and Vermont—prohibit their sale due to emission restrictions." From Ann Job of MSN Autos. That effectively closes more than 20% of the US market to diesels."

Again, according to V.W. ..

quote from my original link... ]

Debunked: High-Mileage Vehicles Not Blocked from US Market

"First, VW used to sell the same (or similar?) Passat as is sold in Europe here in the US. But it didn't sell very well. It was too expensive and too small in the mid-size sedan segment. So they came up with a larger version with a better price point; and of course the size effects the mileage. [Americans are not nearly so concerned with mileage as Europeans are.]"

Gee, maybe that has to do with the price of fuel in U.S. compared to european countries... And in U.K. price is higher for diesel than

Here is an interesting take on Diesel value from U.K. Perspective

So here is someone indicating that price "premium" of vehicles in europe is significant. Imagine that...

Helps to do some real fact checking, try it some time...
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 2:48:13 PM

reb, everything I said about the emissions standards driving up the price of diesels still holds true. Yes, VW has decided it's worthwhile to add the equipment required so that their diesels can be sold in CA. CA hasn't relaxed their standards, it just that VW meets them now, but at what cost?The price premium is very steep compared to their sales in Europe; Californians are paying $3-$4k more because of CA emissions standards.
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Praxtwin
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 2:47:27 PM

Ford has a five seater diesel hatchback in India that averages 30 km/Lit (approx 70 mpg). Hope we get good ones like that here.
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GrumpyCat
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 2:41:07 PM

Too much bureaucracy paperwork. Exactly the sort of thing which is throttling all other American businesses.

Can not sell a car here that does not meet the DOT/NHTSA's safety standards. Many European models do not. And if they were "upgraded" then they would no longer be the economy models they are in their home country.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 12:42:47 PM

Volkswagen Jetta TDI - meets standards for California.

V.W. is available, and it is not the epa that is restricting the use, but the individual states. The article was from a year ago... and since that time some changes have been made. I searched VW tdi and found about a hundred tdi's available for sale.. so i dont thing your information is accurate, if fact its very misleading... Please acknowledge that the information you previous posted was incorrect. The article you referenced is a year old, and out of date. But thats what you get when you search for information to back your own beliefs.

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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 9:36:17 AM

DHomz, I'm curious, what's the price premium for a TDI vs a gas engine in the VW's there in Canada?
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 9:08:13 AM

reb, you're putting words in my mouth. It is what it is; my only speculation was whether it's a conscious effort by the EPA. Yes, despite the red tape and extra thousands of dollars, several manufacturers have said they will introduce diesels in the US market. We'll have to wait and see if they actually get it done by next year, or whether they end up a few years late like the Volt. And yes, VW is doing well with their diesels, despite the nearly $5000 premium for the TDI over the gas versions. Imagine how well the TDI's would be selling at a premium of only $2000.

Oh, and it's not just the EPA - "Popular in Europe, diesel models are limited in their availability in the U.S. because five states—California, New York, Massachusetts, Maine and Vermont—prohibit their sale due to emission restrictions." From Ann Job of MSN Autos. That effectively closes more than 20% of the US market to diesels.



[Edited by: HotRod10 at 8/9/2012 10:09:51 AM EST]
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DHomz
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 9:04:36 AM

People here in Canada are buying up TDI Volkswagens like crazy. In some cases they are backordered, like the Passat. The emissions on the newer TDIs are just as good as gasioline cars, they use DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) in them now. And hey, if you can get a car that seats 5 with room to spare with a buttload of trunk space and STILL get 43 mpg (US gallons), no wonder they are backordered here.

Yes, we should steer away from oil-based fuels. We should also not drive 90 mph in a 10-cylinder truck, but you cannot force people to change their habits. But, you can offer them vehicles that do get higher mileage if they choose to purchase them. I drive a 2004 VW Jetta TDI and get a consistent 47 mpg with it. Seven hundred miles to a single 15-gallon tank of fuel. Even if the emissions were slightly worse than a gasoline engine, I still only fuel up half as much. Does refining oil to gasoline not have any effect on the environment? Oh yes it does. If everyone drove a vehicle that got even 35-40 mpg, it would almost cut fuel consumption by one third globally, thus reducing emissions the refineries pump out into the air.

Not everyone can drive a small car however, that's a given, and need trucks or SUVs to accommodate cargo. Volkswagen has a truck sold elsewhere in the world called the Amarok, offered in a 4 cylinder TDI diesel engine that has 180 hp and 400 ft-lbs of torque. A truck that gets nearly 30 mpg. It needs to be sold in North America!
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 7:22:03 AM

HotRod, I didn't know that the epa was out for certain diesels... thanks for your testimony. So evidently GM and Chrysler are making big mistakes offering their new offerings... and also Volkswagen as well, who are selling well and sales are increasing...

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Dennis783
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 7:04:19 AM

Not unusual for this president's actions not matching his talk
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2012 12:49:04 AM

Ok, I've read the article, now that the link works. The conclusion is still the same - it costs too much for the equipment required for diesels to meet the emissions standards set by the EPA. While some emissions from diesels are lower than gas engines, the Nox and particulates are higher. Some may call it a coincidence that the EPA standards are just low enough for virtually all gas engines to pass, but just high enough on the Nox and particulates to exclude most diesels. Coincidence or not (I say not), it effectively pushes up the price of most diesels to the point where they cannot compete in the US market. The EPA has set it's standards to give the advantage to gasoline-powered vehicles, and keep many diesels out of the US market. No, it's not an outright ban, but it has the same effect.

Interesting that Europe, with a higher poulation density, is not as strict on the Nox and particulates as the EPA thinks we need to be here.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2012 9:41:22 PM

Debunked: High-Mileage Vehicles Not Blocked from US Market

Hotrod, try reading the article... I've re-posted.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Diesels, as long as using clean Diesel fuel...

And why is it V.W. is selling vehicles in US?

In fact german vehicles are the ONLY vehicles sold in U.S. with any volumes as far as "reasonable" passenger vehicles... Ford is going a different route. With "eco" engines and possibly hybrids... we will see how serious they are in selling them... by how they price them.

Again, summary of the article:

1. U.S. Market did not accept vehicle so they came up with larger version...
2. U.S. EPA calculates MPG differently than European equivalent...
3. U.S. Gallon is less than an Imperial Gallon ...
4. U.S. Government does not stipulate what companies can sell, except regulations (safety/ emissions).And why is it GM, and Chrysler are bringing Diesels into U.S. Next year for passenger vehicles? Cruze ECO D, Cadilac ATS, And Jeep Grand Cherokee are supposed to arrive next year...
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Houckster
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2012 8:59:37 PM

SILVERSTREAKER writes: From what I understand, the EPA bases the emissions standards on emissions per unit of fuel consumed. Instead, they should consider emissions per mile. If they did, I'll bet that diesel vehicles and some of the vehicles only available overseas would meet the standards.
_____
Vehicle emissions are tested by taking the vehicle through two driving schedules on a dynamometer, one for city and one for highway simulations. Emissions and fuel consumption are measured from these tests.

Urban Driving Schedule
Highway Driving Schedule

I assume the dynamometer is programmed to run the each car tested the exact same way. It does not matter what type of engine is in the car. What results are acceptable and therefore grounds for certifying or rejecting the car are keyed to the test procedure.

I just do not see that the EPA is trying to keep diesels from being certified. If they are clean enough, they can pass. That should be clear from the fact that there is not a separate testing schedule for diesels.

[Edited by: Houckster at 8/8/2012 10:03:17 PM EST]
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2012 10:02:22 AM

Well reb, I got a error 404 (file not found) on your link. Your listed items do not refute the assertion that diesel vehicles are being blocked from the US market by regulations.

Not only are the standards written to make it more difficult for diesels (emissions per unit of fuel instead of emissions per mile, as silverstreaker noted), but the process for approval has so much red tape and is so time consuming that it is not worth it to go through the process, even for a vehicle that can pass. If these vehicles can pass Europe's standards but not ours, there's something rotten, and it's not in Denmark this time.

If Ford is selling diesel versions of its cars in Europe, but can't sell them here, the EPA needs to get on the ball and streamline the regulations and processes.

There's also the different tax rates (18.4 cents for a gallon of gas and 24.4 cents for a gallon of diesel) that decreases the competitiveness of diesel cars.

As far as more diesel cars driving up the price, the bulk of diesel used for transportation in the US (98.4%) goes into trucks, trains and airplanes. If you include construction and mining, etc., less than 1.5% of the diesel used in the US goes into cars and pickups. Source The number of diesel cars could double without putting a dent in the overall diesel consumption.

Crude oil refining can also be adjusted to produce a somewhat larger percentage of diesel (obviously that would decrease the percentage of other products such as gasoline and motor oil).
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2012 7:36:28 AM

Debunked: High-Mileage Vehicles Not Blocked from US Market

Synopsis of vw response from Mark Gillies of VW, His title is: Manager, Product and Technology Communications, Volkswagen of America Inc.

1. U.S. Market did not accept vehicle so they came up with larger version...
2. U.S. EPA calculates MPG differently than European equivalent...
3. U.S. Gallon is less than an Imperial Gallon ...
4. U.S. Government does not stipulate what companies can sell, except regulations (safety/ emissions).

Interesting note that DIesels get better mpg than epa sticker indicates...
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2012 11:37:08 PM

Houckster says "What I'm saying is that fuel efficiency suffers somewhat because all vehicles sold here have to meet crash worthiness and emissions standards. While those goals are worthy ones, they come with a cost in gas mileage to all vehicles."

From what I understand, the EPA bases the emissions standards on emissions per unit of fuel consumed. Instead, they should consider emissions per mile. If they did, I'll bet that diesel vehicles and some of the vehicles only available overseas would meet the standards.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2012 8:50:22 PM

What I'm saying is that fuel efficiency suffers somewhat because all vehicles sold here have to meet crash worthiness and emissions standards. While those goals are worthy ones, they come with a cost in gas mileage to all vehicles. I never claimed that diesels get better mileage because they are lighter than a comparable gasser.

As far as diesels having trouble with emissions standards, I think that's overstated. I submitted a link that indicates that some major OEMs have doubts about the demand for diesel-powered cars. That is probably a bigger reason than emissions for the lack of diesel-engined cars. OTOH, Chevrolet will introduce a diesel Cruze next year. If it's successful, others may follow although that may cause diesel prices to increase and possibly whatever CPM advantage diesel has will be eroded.

[Edited by: Houckster at 8/7/2012 9:51:35 PM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2012 8:52:31 AM

"there are other considerations such crash-worthiness that must be considered"

Almost all (if not all) of the diesel powered vehicles have gas versions on the road in the US now, so it's not their crashworthiness that's the problem. It's the emissions testing, not necessarily even the standards, that present the biggest obstacle. Diesel vehicle get better mileage than gas engines because of the nature of the engine, not by reducing vehicle weight.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 8:40:28 AM

It is also important to remember that there are other considerations such crash-worthiness that must be considered when designing a car. While it's certainly possible get more MPGs out our cars with reduced weight, even with the high gas prices we face it's still unacceptable to drive cars that offer little if any protection in a crash.
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Dennis783
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 6:47:31 AM

I'm ok with more diesel cars, but that is only a short run solution. In the end we need to get off all foreign oil
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OilerFan
Champion Author Tulsa

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 6:15:17 AM

I have wondered at the choices we have despite what I've seen elsewhere for decades.
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RalphHightower
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 4:58:36 AM

Well, if it doesn't pass EPA emissions requirements, there is no way that it would pass California's emission requirements.
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Bluebird333
All-Star Author Wisconsin

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2012 12:26:25 AM

"Whats the SCR system?"
Oilpan4
Selective Catalytic Reduction is a process in which diesel exhaust fluid (DEF), a mixture of urea and water, is mixed into the exhaust stream before entering a catalyst where a chemical reaction occurs. The heat of the exhaust converts urea into carbon dioxide and ammonia. Inside the catalyst, ammonia and nitrous oxides (NOx) are converted into nitrogen gas and water.

Water methanol injection doesn't increase mpg. It adds power and lowers EGTs. Propane on the other hand does increase mpg and power. EGRs also shorten engine longevity.

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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 2:36:26 PM

I guess I cant blame ford for wanting to test the demand.

After all look at the EV market. They hit saturation real quick.

I do blame GM for ruining the diesel market in the U.S.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 1:36:10 PM

OILPAN4 quotes me: "The EPA is not actively blocking diesel cars"

. . . and then writes: Oh and enacting emissions restrictions that the EPA knows cant be met isn't a ban?
______
Who says the emission levels can't be met? Maybe they can't be met and provide a sufficient amount of profit for the OEMs, I don't know. I am no expert but diesel technology is advancing at a rather rapid pace and some of the refinements to diesels that have been mentioned below may indeed make diesel-powered cars much more prominent on the road in the future.

I do think it is a mistake to automatically blame the EPA for this situation when it is also entirely possible that demand for diesels is not as great as some might think. As I pointed out, the article provided by GOLDSEEKER is only one point of view and it may be seriously flawed.

Nor do I think the EPA is trying to ban diesels via emissions standards. Such thinking smacks of conspiracy thinking. Emissions standards are based on maintaining healthy air levels.

So will we be seeing more diesels? We'll see but this much is certain, if the car can meet the emissions standards it can be certified and offered to the public.

Ford Waits to See if Diesel Cars Demand Is Real

[Edited by: Houckster at 7/25/2012 2:38:22 PM EST]
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OceanArcher
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 10:48:09 AM

I wonder if that Opel Cadet he refers to in this thread would be able to pass all the safety and environmental restrictions in place today??
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 9:03:54 AM

Whats the SCR system?

EGR also reduces fuel economy.
The only thing proven to boost power, fuel economy and power on a diesel is water injection.
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Bluebird333
All-Star Author Wisconsin

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2012 1:03:11 AM

Oilpan4 is correct I had that backwards( a bit tired). Also SCRs help reduce NOx and improve fuel economy when using the Urea injection.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2012 2:42:39 PM

"The EPA is not actively blocking diesel cars"

Oh and enacting emissions restrictions that the EPA knows cant be met isn't a ban?

"The main problem with diesels is soot witch are what dpfs and EGRs are for"
The EGR system causes more soot, its used to lower NOx.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2012 12:36:40 PM

BLUEBIRD333: See my post of Jul 21, 2012 5:29:40 PM. The EPA is not actively blocking diesel cars. If they can meet emissions standards they can be certified.
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Bluebird333
All-Star Author Wisconsin

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2012 3:01:25 AM

Its those epa bastards that won't let the U.S have all the diesel vehicles like the rest of the world. Even though diesels are better for the environment in everyway vs gasoline vehicles.The main problem with diesels is soot witch are what dpfs and egrs are for or if I could run nitrous on the streets (Zero black smoke out the pipe even with my pump turned all the way up and mashing the pedal to the floor, on the strip of course). When I'm not hauling I can get around the mid 20s for mpg and thats an old 4x4 truck. Just think about how much money we could save with a new diesel car.
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jul 21, 2012 9:53:44 PM

Debunked: High-Mileage Vehicles Not Blocked from US Market

Synopsis of vw response from Mark Gillies of VW, His title is: Manager, Product and Technology Communications, Volkswagen of America Inc.

1. U.S. Market did not accept vehicle so they came up with larger version...
2. U.S. EPA calculates MPG differently than European equivalent...
3. U.S. Gallon is less than an Imperial Gallon ...
4. U.S. Government does not stipulate what companies can sell, except regulations (safety/ emissions).

Interesting note that DIesels get better mpg than epa sticker indicates...
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Jul 21, 2012 4:29:40 PM

I am always suspicious of articles condemning someone without them why they pursue a particular policy. There's another side to this argument.

From the EPA site we have this: Because of the technical challenges associated with controlling NOx and PM emissions, manufacturers have not been able to design diesel vehicles that comply with the strictest EPA and California emission standards. However, we expect to see more diesels offered in the future as improvements to diesel emission control technology are made.

So . . . maybe the EPA is not actively blocking diesels but is waiting for vehicles that can meet the emissions standards that they are charged with implementing.

[Edited by: Houckster at 7/21/2012 5:37:15 PM EST]
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2012 7:32:32 AM

Here's an interesting article debunking the notion that the government is blocking high mileage vehicles....

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