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Clean Diesels bring a mess of decisions

Detnews.com -- By Brian J. O'Connor

A clean diesel car can be good for the environment -- but will it end up cleaning out your wallet? With mileage that can be as much as one-third better than comparable gasoline engines -- hitting more than 40 mpg on the highway -- clean diesel engines can take a big bite out of your car's carbon footprint.

The new diesels are much improved over the models that appeared in the late 1980s, with lowered tailpipe emissions and quieter performance that refutes diesels' reputation as noisy stinkpots. But the premium cost of diesel models and diesel fuel mean they also can take a bite out of your wallet.

In many cases, it can take years for drivers to see real savings from the improved mileage of a diesel, notes John O'Dell, senior editor of the Green Car Advisor at Edmund

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Submitted Mar 15, 2010 By: UncleCurt

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catfish99 Champion Author Wilmington Posts:10,935 Points:2,036,935 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 17, 2010 4:47:53 AM Ignore catfish99 Report Abuse It is affordable compared with gasoline engines, once you look at total costs of ownership (fuel costs, repair costs, and resale value).
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:15,285 Points:1,145,225 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 8:17:29 PM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse if we were to GROW diesel, it would start out much cleaner in the first place. But, the EtOH lobby will never let that happen unless they can really gain from it...
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:15,285 Points:1,145,225 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 8:16:41 PM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse coughlin: diesel doesn't haveto smell bad. Only poorly running diesel truly stink. Since all the sulfur has been removed pretty much, diesel isn't smelly anymore. And a LOT safer (less flammable) and a lot easier to GROW rather than fracture and refine. But alas, it's folks like you who will be standing on the carpet of progress... time will tell who will get to go forward - the biodiesel folks or folks like yourself.
cpl11787 All-Star Author Minnesota Posts:630 Points:123,275 Joined:Jan 2010	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:46:28 PM Ignore cpl11787 Report Abuse of course something good is going to cost more.
PathfinderSC Champion Author South Carolina Posts:7,179 Points:1,368,885 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:03:56 PM Ignore PathfinderSC Report Abuse We need more clean Diesel.
fordmexico Champion Author Michigan Posts:7,571 Points:307,425 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 5:50:27 PM Ignore fordmexico Report Abuse Fuel taxes from wikipedia, "Fuel taxes in the United States vary by state. For the first quarter of 2009, the mean state gasoline tax is 27.2 cents per US gallon, plus 18.4 cents per US gallon federal tax making the total 45.6 cents per US gallon (12.0 ¢/L). For diesel, the mean state tax is 26.6 cents per US gallon plus an additional 24.4 cents per US gallon federal tax making the total 50.8 cents US per gallon (13.4 ¢/L).[7] There are also a few states that charge sales tax on top of the excise taxes and the retail price." Diesel is taxed (24.4-18.4=.06) $0.06 more than gas at the federal level!
fordmexico Champion Author Michigan Posts:7,571 Points:307,425 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 5:44:43 PM Ignore fordmexico Report Abuse fordfan1 posted, "Good idea clean diesels. I wish that American auto makers would embrace diesel engines like they do in Europe." FORD WISHES THE AMERICAN CONSUMER WOULD EMBRACE DIESELS LIKE THEY DO IN EUROPE !!! Ford tried diesels in the mid 1980's , real diesels, not gas makeovers, and they flopped because no one wanted them! Reading the posts to this forum tells me they would flop again if they were to be introduced. [Edited by: fordmexico at 3/15/2010 6:45:00 PM EST]
chemist74 Champion Author Cleveland Posts:12,392 Points:2,180,040 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 9:20:12 AM Ignore chemist74 Report Abuse "Clean" diesels could not operate in the U.S. until we switched to ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel. Refineries normally get a lot more gasoline than diesel fuel from a barrel of crude because of the composition of the crude. It would be very expensive to significantly increase diesel yield. If a lot of people switched to diesel cars diesel fuel prices would clearly go up.
72_Monte Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:5,449 Points:1,535,205 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 8:17:43 AM Ignore 72_Monte Report Abuse When more people are driving them, more refineries will start focusing on the fuel which will bring those costs down. Hey mister, can you spare a nickel so I can buy a clean diesel??
Gassed01 Champion Author Toronto Posts:4,078 Points:1,348,765 Joined:Jan 2006	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:46:26 AM Ignore Gassed01 Report Abuse Diesels are widespread in Europe. Don't know why there aren't more here. They're clean, quiet, and perform well. Diesel price varies, sometimes it is more than gasoline, sometimes less. Depends where gas is at any one point in time. Diesel price doesn't seem to fluctuate on a day to day basis like gasoline.
LocalSpyGuy Champion Author Tampa Posts:5,494 Points:1,123,245 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:38:26 AM Ignore LocalSpyGuy Report Abuse It all comes down to price. If it is affordable compared to the standard vehicles, people will buy it.
Buck_on_Bass Champion Author Tennessee Posts:5,196 Points:1,043,315 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:38:18 AM Ignore Buck_on_Bass Report Abuse Part of the difference in diesel prices is the tax. Federal tax on diesel is higher than on gasoline. Several states also have high tax on diesel than on gasoline. Today's automotive diesel is not like the old diesels from the late '70's or 80's. The new engines were designed as diesels from the start and were not converted gasoline engines which we used in the late '70's and '80's. I'd buy a diesel if the vehicle I want came with a diesel. Meanwhile I'll wait a bit longer.
capt455 Champion Author North Carolina Posts:1,262 Points:640,840 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:31:00 AM Ignore capt455 Report Abuse w4kh......Yes, I have thought the same thing. The current gasoline version Smart is only slightly better than my wife's Honda Fit. I would be more interested in one that had mileage that was on par with its small size.
w4kh Champion Author Riverside Posts:9,326 Points:1,765,100 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:26:31 AM Ignore w4kh Report Abuse A clean diesel seems like a good idea... I am waiting for Smart to bring their diesel Smart Car to the US... at 86 miles per gallon, I could commute for a month or more on a single fill up, and it could run on fryer oil as well...
Texrider49 Champion Author New Haven Posts:1,340 Points:313,725 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:23:43 AM Ignore Texrider49 Report Abuse unless I need the diesel engine to power a vehicle made for hauling or power as in excavators i will stick to a gas engine.
maske_2222 Champion Author Manitoba Posts:5,714 Points:1,159,590 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:15:19 AM Ignore maske_2222 Report Abuse VW's TDI is a great engine.
capt455 Champion Author North Carolina Posts:1,262 Points:640,840 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:14:42 AM Ignore capt455 Report Abuse Modern diesels are so quiet and clean you can barely tell the difference from a gasoline powered vehicle. Even so, I still love my '73 Mercedes diesel, even though it is slow, smokey, and noisy. It's also dead reliable and very fuel efficient. I drove it to an event at the high school this weekend and some of those kids looked at it like it came from another planet! It was already 20 years old when they were born! LOL :)
dan30thz28 Champion Author New Jersey Posts:3,700 Points:1,539,970 Joined:Feb 2006	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:12:29 AM Ignore dan30thz28 Report Abuse Love my 'older' diesel. 100k, and no problems other than maintenance. The article doesn't mention that diesels also outlast their gasoline counterparts too.
RamboOn66 Champion Author Tampa Posts:3,092 Points:1,440,015 Joined:Jan 2006	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:10:43 AM Ignore RamboOn66 Report Abuse Lookin' forward to Volvo's C-30 diesel plug-in.
df99 Veteran Author Rhode Island Posts:496 Points:667,810 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:10:31 AM Ignore df99 Report Abuse These diesel bashers obviously haven't seen a recent one at all. Their image was formed thirty years ago and haven't changed. Technology has come a long way. The VW Jetta TDI wasn't the "Green Car of the Year" for 2009 without good reason. See the coffee filter test. The article fails to mention the possibility of biodiesel at all. Mind you that's not from crops, but from waste. Waste coffee grinds can produce biodiesel.
Buffalo Joe Champion Author Alberta Posts:7,458 Points:2,077,075 Joined:Feb 2003	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:10:15 AM Ignore Buffalo Joe Report Abuse Clean diesel has improved a lot over the years. They have to clean up train locomotives and semi's now. Get the outdated ones off the road.
ttwiw Champion Author Austin Posts:2,166 Points:1,301,160 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:10:10 AM Ignore ttwiw Report Abuse VW's TDi is awesome
ang2010 Veteran Author New York Posts:322 Points:77,175 Joined:Feb 2010	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:09:00 AM Ignore ang2010 Report Abuse gasoline for me!
ky_commuter75 Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:5,221 Points:1,488,590 Joined:Jul 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:08:59 AM Ignore ky_commuter75 Report Abuse why does it seem that people cry over everything here. Use diesel, don't use diesel, use our food supply and make ethanol but not many are using it. Give us a good alternative choice instead of doing everything half a$$. Make us self sufficient from the rest of the world which will create jobs here at home.
GasholeMI Champion Author Lansing Posts:7,788 Points:1,254,615 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:07:39 AM Ignore GasholeMI Report Abuse Right now this is not for me.
throttle Champion Author Maryland Posts:10,426 Points:2,157,095 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:07:23 AM Ignore throttle Report Abuse I'd rather go with a gasoline hybrid.
Bpers2001 All-Star Author Seattle Posts:735 Points:104,070 Joined:Nov 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:07:21 AM Ignore Bpers2001 Report Abuse When I was a kid, diesel fuel was uber cheap. Much cheaper than gasoline. Somewhere along the line, things flipped.
janctx Champion Author Lubbock Posts:2,715 Points:882,880 Joined:Nov 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:05:58 AM Ignore janctx Report Abuse guess i will pass
Trixiegrrr Rookie Author South Carolina Posts:78 Points:48,385 Joined:Jun 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:05:17 AM Ignore Trixiegrrr Report Abuse "Diesel fuel is nasty to get on you and gasoline is fine" -What does this mean? I've never gotten diesel on me, but I've never been happy to have gasoline on me.. The Green Economy isn't going to bury the country. If you were so happy with the petrol based economy you wouldn't be on this site.
FocusGuy Champion Author Seattle Posts:4,914 Points:969,825 Joined:Apr 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:04:45 AM Ignore FocusGuy Report Abuse surprise surprise/
phinsup67 Champion Author North Carolina Posts:4,936 Points:938,200 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:03:11 AM Ignore phinsup67 Report Abuse Everyone has to figure it out for themselves and their budget...for folks who don't drive much, maybe it just isn't worth it.
Digger5 Veteran Author Milwaukee Posts:437 Points:1,228,730 Joined:Jun 2004	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 7:00:30 AM Ignore Digger5 Report Abuse Pay now, or pay later. There is no cheap simple answer, otherwise we would all be there already!
BoerneWatch Champion Author San Antonio Posts:12,942 Points:1,990,030 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:59:53 AM Ignore BoerneWatch Report Abuse Ever sat listening to someone for half an hour and got nothing from it? That is this article. It feels nice but there is no real information in it.
Spetsnaz Champion Author Dayton Posts:1,726 Points:594,820 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:59:22 AM Ignore Spetsnaz Report Abuse wow I don't think I will be going to diesel anytime soon.
curlypooh Champion Author New Jersey Posts:8,352 Points:1,545,715 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:58:18 AM Ignore curlypooh Report Abuse Diesels stink, pipe the exhaust in your own face and see what you think.
LCSTEELERBOB Champion Author Gary Posts:1,922 Points:480,060 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:54:40 AM Ignore LCSTEELERBOB Report Abuse sounds like no way out , they get you one way or the other
TomT2Lee Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:3,822 Points:1,170,145 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:54:15 AM Ignore TomT2Lee Report Abuse Instead of bashing diesel, how about looking at the cost of alternatives or doing nothing. Alternatives are outrageously expensive. Depending on which dream you want to go with the cost can run in the trillions of dollars. Yes, diesel powered vehicles are more expensive than gas, but are a far better value than hybrids without all the problems hybrids have that few people will talk about.
DJRIO Champion Author Miami Posts:5,513 Points:963,265 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:54:11 AM Ignore DJRIO Report Abuse you use less fuel and you make it up over time.
Cruiser340 Champion Author Grand Rapids Posts:10,318 Points:2,330,215 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:53:21 AM Ignore Cruiser340 Report Abuse europe has fairly clean diesel engine's in their cars.
Beau2140 Champion Author New York Posts:5,951 Points:1,193,185 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:52:53 AM Ignore Beau2140 Report Abuse No premium diesel in our area.
Daddybud Champion Author North Carolina Posts:4,173 Points:917,385 Joined:May 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:50:42 AM Ignore Daddybud Report Abuse I don't really like diesels cars.
no_monkey2002 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:6,233 Points:1,624,775 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:50:21 AM Ignore no_monkey2002 Report Abuse the increase in the buying of a diesel driven auto will keep a lot of people from buying
DLgougewatcher All-Star Author North Dakota Posts:688 Points:190,780 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:49:24 AM Ignore DLgougewatcher Report Abuse The European model Ford Festiva (with a 4 cyl. turbo diesel) gets 63mpg!!
USNChief Veteran Author Jacksonville Posts:309 Points:69,865 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:48:11 AM Ignore USNChief Report Abuse The diesels fit a niche just as other non-traditional powerplants do. No single design technology holds the solution. It appears each of these technologies are improving as time goes by which helps reduce petro consumption and emissions alike. Unfortunately cost is always a factor for consumer and producer.
mk9999 Champion Author Rochester Posts:5,568 Points:1,209,870 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:47:56 AM Ignore mk9999 Report Abuse And it is not easy to find diesel at the local gas station.
DerHahn Champion Author Illinois Posts:11,161 Points:1,656,150 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:46:48 AM Ignore DerHahn Report Abuse bring on the high mileage diesels. only up to 1/3 more on the mileage? that depends on the vehicle. many of the european imports already have high mileage diesel engines available, they just aren't sold here. [Edited by: DerHahn at 3/15/2010 7:55:55 AM EST]
Zuman Champion Author New York Posts:3,903 Points:1,445,655 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:46:27 AM Ignore Zuman Report Abuse The Green economy will bury this country.
Chitowner Champion Author Omaha Posts:3,158 Points:875,690 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:46:24 AM Ignore Chitowner Report Abuse Diesel fuel is nasty to get on you and gasoline is fine. We as a nation are just driving less and buying less.
TeachR06 Champion Author Raleigh Posts:3,535 Points:1,018,660 Joined:Sep 2006	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:46:14 AM Ignore TeachR06 Report Abuse Diesel is really high now. Can't imagine how much higher it will be this summer!
rvn4me Champion Author Texas Posts:3,279 Points:1,033,740 Joined:Jan 2009	Message Posted: Mar 15, 2010 6:43:02 AM Ignore rvn4me Report Abuse Now watch the price of diesel really go up.